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House | June 3, 2015 | Committee Room | Rules, Calendar, and Operations

Full MP3 Audio File

The house committee arrange[sp?] count on operation the house will come order. Members please take your seat. Pleased to have assisting us this morning several pages. If you will stand up and introduce yourself to the committee, Matthew Banoci[sp?] from Cleveland county. In the back of the room are Austin Dubois[sp?] from [xx] county, Brandon Dubois[sp?] from [xx] county County and Mia Pili[sp?] from Wake County. We welcome you and we appreciate your service today. We also thank our soldiers' armed staff Mr. Adams, Mr. Orlestone[sp?], Miss Gadistone[sp?] and Mr. Litchen[sp?]. And of course we welcome to thank our staff, they'll assist us today. Members that was noticed last evening for the house rules, the matter reported to the community today will be the consideration to the proposed committee substitute for house bill 562. House bill five the proposed committee substitute for house bill part 562 is now before the committee. As a matter of house keeping it is a here to allow the bill sponsor to explain the oppose committee substitute section by section we will then take questions and come here from the members of the committee we will then move in to a period where the public will have to speak up to a time period of your time we are going to add up two minutes to some the bill within return to committee discussion an debate of the proposed committee substitute For what purpose do [xx]. [xx] Representative [xx] the chair will prefer that we wait until after after the public has had a chance to speak and then we'll move into the full work of the committee. Members the proposed committee substitute for house bill 562 is before the committee and the chair will recognize Representative Schaffer to present this section or to designate as she sees fit to the other bill sponsors to present the sections of the bill, Representative Schaffer you have the floor. Thank you Mr. Chairman and members of the committee and members of the public who are in attendance, I'm going to in just a moment, turn this over to staff to go through the PCS and explain the provisions of the PCS but before we do that I'm obviously we've had the first 52 in a different version, this isn't a judiciary committee before and what I wanted to simply say before we get into the nitty gritty of the bill is that there have been a number of issues, concerns, that have been brought up by members, house members as well as members of the public and what we have attempted to do is to meet those concerns to the way you address the problems that individual have, the concerns that people have, sometimes there might be a provision that might have had an incidental effect that we did on unintended so we have tried to go back and answer those issues. We do try to get folks around the table and communicating and talking even when we might be on, we are on different types of issue on behalf of me and other bill sponsors  and with that I'm going turn over to [xx] to prepared to take us to the PCS. [xx] from your staff you have the floor madam. Thank you Mr chair, I'm going to give you a brief highlight of what this section goes. and I'm happy to answer more detailed questions that exist Section one will make a couple of amendment to the general, killing and [xx] weapon statute to allow a couple of additional exceptions to that statute the first is which will allow [xx] to carry current the exception didn't allow that and and I'm not allowed to carry it on more just litle bit on this the number eight will allow [xx] certain public safety who has been designated is authorized to and have to carry any exception to that statute would add administrative law judges to have a concealed carry permit to the exemptions in that statute. Section one B will authorize a person carrying an ordinary pocket licence that's currently defined already in the concealed [xx] into to the state capital

building is an exception into the statue that is being amended there. Section one c is an additional modification to a statute to reflect the department of public safety employees that were in section one A, section one A and E would allow legislators legislative employees to carry concealed in the legislative building including this building and the legislative office and on the ground. If they have a concealed permit from that and it's also provisioned to provide knows to the chief of they're in fact going to take advantage of that. Section two, last year or year before last, in last two years current bills that you have, you allow people who can still permits to have guns in their locked vehicles on educational property this would make the modification that statute just to clarify what you can and can't do who is carrying a person in a car to remove the gun from their person to in their vehicles or vicea versa without technically being in violation for a short period of time be exposed to view, and not remain on the lot container at all times and also would allow someone who is carrying on a person who remains in the car to sit on the car with the gun on the person supposed to lock the container as the current law require Section three deals with provided in the part of the stands of someone concealed killing climate who has a, is authorized to have a concealed hand gun in their vehicle and removes that hand gun from the vehicle and responds to a threatening situation, force to justify persuant to our statute relation to when deadly forces testify Section 4 relates to farms at state fair, 4A authorizes the commissioner [xx] to prepare the clearing of farms on the State Fair grounds the period of state their only. It does prevent him from exempting I mean from not allowing law enforcement and also requires that people still be allowed to leave them in their and go down for and until you get permanent episode and other aspect for all, section four is the study ascent permanent to determine the best way to run people to carry it from their vehicles to the entrance of the state fairgrounds and then store their guns at the entrance and they may be able to re-obtain them again when they leave so that they can carry concealed when I'm walking to and from the gates of the State fair. Section 5 emens[sp?] the shooting lane protection act to expand that to allow essentially right now only shooting rangers that were established I believe it's two years prior to 1997 currently exempt from additional may be adopted in the future they don't have to comply with what with the law to come recreated this may extend that prediction to our shooting ranges so that once the shading ranges legally establish and say you're in compliance of the law that that time they do not have to modify in order to comply with additional ordinances that may be adopted. Section seven of the bill makes modifications to the statute that relates to it's ineligible to receive a concealed handgun permit. Under current law there are a list of misdemeanors that are permanent bars to receiving a concealed handgun permit this section would in what you see as number eight on page five would eliminate a few of those misdemeanors and also limit the majority of it, limit this may estimate to only affecting the [xx] for three years prior to the day the application was estimated except for the new additions in 8A, 8B and 8C, which are, 8A if they have a stalking conviction is within five years, not three years. 8B is the federal requirement that if it's a misdemeanor involving domestic violence that it is still a permanent bar and 8C involves it is insult involving a law enforcement officer provison for all officers, firefighters, emergency medical technician, medical responder, emergency department personnel, that often there was a permanent bar. Section and 8 will authorize use of the process and short ground riffle for hunting. Section 9 reduces the advance of killing and currently have hand gun pursue to a conceal hand gun prominent and private post and property from a class to a training fraction and authorizes funds of over 500 follows that violation. Section 10A and 10B would repeal the taste of purchase for that statue effective at everyone 20 and 21. Section 10C and 10D will make modification

to the current case of purchacse and that statue effective December one 2015 until that repeal occured in 2021 and section 2C would provide third option for purchasing a hand gun in North Carolina. Currently you can do it either with a pistol purchase permit or a concealed carry permit is recognized as also valid, this just a third allows us to you can choose to go and purchase crystal from a gun licensed and background check without having to obtain a perchase permit or a [xx] permit. Section 10D makes several changes to the process of assurance of pistol permit, pistol [xx] permit page seven down in number two is the essence qualification for house share that is determined good more care and restrict the behaviour that to look at to make probably process application and page eight, six and seven or one to seven and it allows the appeal process for right now if you so up to nice your picture process permanent you are approached to this distance [xx] this record that particular district this will change how the appeal code in that district and that is particular judge for district emperical general and will also allow a decision to the coart of appeals. The new E1 on page eight, sets forth the requirement the safety and the sheriff associate and consultation with sheriff association develop on actual pistol purchase permit application that it will be used to all sheriffs across the state and specifically list the things that the sheriff can require and state they can't acquire in addition document or evidence from applicant in application form in prominence, and in the new section requires any person who is presented with mental health release form from that piece to purchase permit to primary providing to that person's mental health. Section 11 exchanges to the processes of reporting into next or next background checks it requires certain information be recorded to the Clerk in 48 hours after the notice it makes changes to require pistol permit applications and concealed handgun permit applications to be provided electronically. It prohibits the sheriff from requesting additional information for concealed handgun permit unless it's specifically authorised statute and it directs as a SC to use some coordinate technology I will define to comply with the requirements. Also so at start point it requires arresting law enforcement officers to finger print personal chat with certain misterminos and forward those fingerprints to Section 12. A new statue relating to the state uniformity the local regulation a follow on regulation to prohibit local governments from adopting regulations regarding to taxation manufacturer of transportation of firearms and also authorise another person to bring an action for declaratory in charge to believe against the local government that violates the statute by adopting the relation and violation of the statute. Section 13 under federal for the transfer manufacturer of certain types of weapons requires a satisfaction by what federal law refers to the chief local Law Enforcement Officer that is defined in federal laws as determined by the ATF who these people are by their local Chief of Police, Sherrifs, DAs, there's a certain category of people, but they are state officials. This would direct in state laws that any push new beats that federal definition, he was requested to complete a certification so do that person qualify federal law most in fact certain step certifications must be so within a certain time period and if they deny it, it deals with the process for if they deny it and all that. So the process to ensure that if someone trying to that [xx] they can obtain that certification Section 14 requires a share to receive and application for a concealed hand gun permite to make the request for any mail health records that they need within 15 days of receiving that application. So it just sets the time to evaluate, they must start the process to get those records and provides that the punished shall not be denied unless asking is determined to the ineligible and so is the statute Section 15 is the statute Relates to the statute which limits local government regulation of carrying concealed handguns. This is the statute that has

a recreational facility language that the child dealt with in the past couple of years. To add, language similar to the previous section about allowing action for declaratory and adjoint relief against the local government if they vow it statute. Section 16 related to a written questionnaire or written forms by health providers to patients relating to their gun, that I shouldn't use this. This is very changed for me, previous version is saying there is no longer a provision  it's simply a requirement that if there is a written questionnaire or form provided application that they've to be all my documents or attached the document that conspicuously  give them away and notice that they're not required to answer those questions if they choose not to. Section 17 is a currently for a concealed handgun permit and most of all you must be a citizen of United States, this will allow someone who has been lawfully admitted for permanent residency as defined by federal law to obtain a concealed handgun permit under North Carolina law and this is in response to some response to some recent court order injunction of that has been issued in the Eastern district of the federal court. Section 18 says details for that when a particular section, I'm happy that's how I'm going to answer that. Representative Jason. Thank you Susan, I appreciate that. I think at this time we would like to turn it over, unless there are any further comments from my bill sponsors at this time We would like to turn it to the committee if the chair would like to ask for questions. Members of the committee, are there any inquires of the bill sponsors for staff, Representative Laws propose your for recognition. The gentleman is recognized. Page 2 lines 14 the ordinary pocket knife, how is that defined? Is that the length of the blade? How do you know ordinary verses extraordinary. Besides, Representative Balsties besides schools that's been the conversation for a long time you are meber former speaker had to actually propose the bill that defines what a regular pocket knife was it was not a concealed weapon and Miss Ray would you press the button to turn off the green lights please?   Yes I will.  Miss Achew do you recognize  Representative Boast inquiry. The statute, the first 259B designed an ordinary pocket knife as a small knife designed for carrying a popular purse that has cutting edge and  entirely closed by a handle and that may not be opened by very  explosive or spring action so their is not broad requirement but has to be completely closed and their can't be a pop out. Representative Holt, for what purpose do you what want to receive recognition? Thank you Mr Chairman, that is a question.  The gentleman a couple of questions. Yes sir. Is there anywhere in this bill or an of the statute reference here that require the persons who will now be granted the carrying of firearms to take in security courses so they can know how to keep that weapon for themselves, keep someone from taking it from them Miss [xx] Are you referring to section one where we're exempting some additional people from the general concealed weapons statue or they're all required to have concealed handgun permit which does require that you go through the course regarding the law of not carrying concealed and it also has the self defense statues and then you also have to pass an actual shooting test but there's no additional requirement above and beyond what the person, a normal person who has they can still carry permit has to do Representative Hall Is there any requirement? Do they periodically requalify to demonstrate proficiency with the weapon? Not because they'll hang them permanently Representative Paul So under this new class of persons that are allowed carry we'll have a latively a light time or for the period of time you're employed in to positions to carry the weapon without having to demonstrate that an any point in time again in the future that they're either proficient with it or capable of securing it so no one Just to clarify, we're not allowing a new class of people to carry, they can't already carry under certain circumstances, we're just expanding the under which they can do it, but those people know they would not have a requirement to do any

kind of they would have to apply for they we apply for [xx] permit every five years now and they'd have to get the [xx] had been convictions or anything but there is no requirement to re go to class or [xx] follow up. Representative Paul in section three their is a reference to GS 1451.3 and I'm not familiar with all the details of that where in case you could apparently go back and get your hand gun from a concealed from a locked vehicle compartment and then use it where [xx] justified tell me what situation are those going to be where you could go and get a hand gun from the lock[sp?] department then come back to where the can then be justified and use able. Miss [xx] but the statute that it refers to I'll just give to the relevant points it says that persons justified in the use of deadly force and did not have a duty to retreat he or she has a lot of right to be or either of were called upon he or she reasonably [xx] necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or under the circumstances permitted and pursue at 51.2 sorry I got to pull that one out. Which I believe it depends with time that is the defense home work place motor-vehicle which has licences assigned general standard set forth when we're allowed to begin next week look like? Basically it's the right of death or imminent bodily harm of self or someone else. Representative Hall. And this is hypothetical but is this saying, that I feel threatened in my home. I can leave my home go to wherever my vehicle is packed without obviously retreated of escape from home and then go back to the home with the weapon and then reassess my right to say under threat? No the fact is this means the amended effective grade is the fact you regarding having weapons on education properties so this is saying if you are having a gun in your locked vehicle in educational property because you for us to do so and something is occurring on the education property you can go to your car and get that gun and use it under the permissible statute and to defend yourself for others or to prevent bodily harm to your self and others OK, let me change my scenario so I mean my doom room I have engaged in authentication where after I see something I have to see it as a threat I leave my door room go to the park and did for my vehicle that is packed and get my gun out of the secure locked container in my vehicle and then go back to my doom room and engage in the use of the weapon I don't believe that would be considered valued under wall because that would be immediate direct if you have time to get the gun out of your car and come back again to you are going in and the treat in your doom room was not so emanate that you could go and do something about it it's going to be a subject of determination I think, by four it going to bad situation, I don't think it's a definite answer to the question. Follow up for what purpose? For what purpose gentleman? Representative  Paul should be able to debate what's but should he be able to debate what's Mr. Chair there that is rely what to do?  The chairman is the gentleman simply trying to gain clarification that the chair will invite any of other bill sponsors will like weigh and Representative Pauls. Thank you very much gentlemen that is sort of question I think the bill sponsor stare any on the bill sponsor just trying to figure out if this is a good law we are creating out of this file and so. Representative Paul as a critical to the bill's sponsor  Representative Shaffer address one of your concerns. Thank you for your questions Representative Hall[sp?] and thank you Miss Sykes[sp?] for clarifying some of the questions running around and pointing to the different facts[sp?] about this. Particular provision refers to already really clarified the specifics of it. That, yes, that very important word is imminent for it what we did two years ago was that we allowed in house online 37, two years ago. We allowed for individuals who had a concealed carry permit to lawfully take their weapon onto a school premises provided that they

kept that concealed weapon in a closed container or compartment in a locked vehicle. So we are allowing individuals to come onto campus in very very limited circumstances with a conciliatory[sp?] promise and a concealed weapon. What we are doing in this situation, we already have affirmative self-defense. That is a right that we as individuals enjoy. So what we are doing is that we are really the qualifying point here is that, if, you know if you have taken conceal weapon into campus in most considerate limited program [xx] and you are faced with tht crime for that for instance you are walking to your car and someone comes and tries to attack you where under current law, I couldn't reach two feet into my car to get the weapon to protect myself when I lawfully have it there, I mean, that is current law, and so yes, it would be an affirmative defence that I can remove that weapon from the lock to closed container and my car in order to prevent my problem being subject to an imminent threat, imminent. It is right there before you to support to yourself or to someone else that you're with. Representative Hall. Question to the Bill sponsor. Recognized. Is this paying that you will be in the course of being pursued this not intended to create situation where a circumstance happens you left the scene may be you got the weapon, and came back today this is supposed to be for when you're being pursued when you knew the deal Yes for the [xx] I think that did't make a point in terms of the things that you project to determination however that word imminent is very important it is you are getting the call you are getting out of your car that weapon have to stay under current law we are not changing that unless in that very moment there is  imminence for all I adopt for clear in few follow that we had and that you need to protect yourself that is very imminent that you have the opportunity to take that weapon out of the car within eminent trap. The question for the bill bill sponsor will you be listen to end amendment clear part success that you currently under imminent great as the bill sponsor to the situation which was yes line 30 on page three. To be frank I will not be open to that because I believe that current statue already can fake that is again is imminent it is imminent for all I don't think there is anything that there is anything also that we need to do clarify it's clear already, if my other contact will like to win we stop it at any time. Members and chair we have the following hands often Representative Connie, Representative Doctly, Representative Leese lost, before we move on Representative Carney, and Representative Floyd, or any other inquiries about the subject Representative Hall will discuss it, and so we'll stay on it, anyway with your permission Representative Carney we will go to Representative Reives on this point just so we can, Representative Reives for what purpose do you seek recognition? Just a question on the bill sponsor. The gentleman is recognized for an inquiry, Representative Shepard. Thank you Mr. Chair. Representative [xx] I want to make sure I was [xx], do you think the present law would allow you to retain [xx]? I think present law allows you to do this it's just that potentially this current [xx] officer or police officers might charge you with some plastic concealed weapon violation, but it wouldn't be a violation anything to do with due defending system. I'm going to defer that question to staff but I actually believe that under current law you would not be able to remove it from the closed compartment. can make usre to answer your question, what would be the department of defense be two, what the charge of the authorities sent B 2 what I'm saying is, you can get your weapon but right now in the current law the risk that you run by getting the weapon to defend yourself against an assault would be violation of misdemeanour's concealed weapon section. It would be a violation of the provision against having a weapon against education probably so yeah, this [xx] defense is to being charged with having a weapon on education property outside of the, that which you're allowed to have to acknowledge [xx] Property, which currently for the average citizen only having it in your [xx] to be [xx] pursuant to a [xx]. It has nothing to do letting out your shot with actually shooting somebody and what might happen to somebody, what you do with the weapon otherise, there are separates statutes to deal with that [xx] [crosstalk] on this issues of Representative Paul's series of questions seem to focus only on the threat to the concealed permit holder. I'm hoping this would also

cover the situation in which maybe someone in a classroom shooting up the place and the concealed carrier-holder can go to his vehicle and get the gun and protect others also. Would this not apply to threats to other people besides the concealed hand gun permit holder? The provision in question again I would state that the provision mention an eminent threat and it's going to refer to self or others and again that's going to be, depending on the definition of imminent, and so one would question if imminent would mean you had time to leave the building, and come back, and set up. I think we've discuss that, I think we've discussed that fully Representative Carney, for what purpose do you seek recognition? Floor for personal privilege. The lady is recognized. In section 1D on page two [xx] too bad in comfort zone thank you. Again I'll refer to staff if their is a specific or more clarifying point, the legislative employee would be anyone who was employed by the General Assembly and staff. Mr. Chair. Ms Jones. Is the article where the statute is located, the definitions in that articles, the final legislative employee is as employees and officers of the General Assembly consulted and county system members and committees of either House of the General Assembly or legislative finishing for a payback state bond. Students said an accredited also allow in an externship program the General Assembly approved by the legislative substitute commission, and employees of School of Government at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, but does not mean legislators and members of council are safe. Follow up? The lady is recognized. And also could you just clarify on the premises of the state legislative building and what building are you with this. I had to hunt for the actual definition but generally its around here and basically what you envision what belongs to the building I think it's definitely Representative Sail One other comment first question concerning legislature or legislative employees, if you want to clarify, make sure that everyone sees in line 38 it is individuals who have a concealed hand gun permit, so for instance it's already been discussed but it's individuals who are 21 or over, those who have gone through the process of obtaining a permit. So I wanted to make that point since we're hearing about interns and things like that, it's 21 and over Follow up. Include the state legislative building between the wall of the state legislative building and the far code line of those between the legislative office building which includes the garden area and half the stairway, the laning dock, reliant is in our East the lian they are done about the nature of the the essential of life on the we all about working and probably mastery and the bridge and padlock area the house extends building and then it goes up like the building is ture. The Chair thanks Miss. Sykes for the extensive definition, although we may have to have a legislative inquiry to work gardens surrounds the leisure is going on that's the  requirement we would have before we continue. Thank you so much Mr Chair and I really appreciate the clarification here because this is a mighty and big step we are taking here in my 13 and 14th year. I have a question, a legislative building does that include the house in Senate chambers. OK. A comment if I may. The lady has the floor to debate the bill. Thank you Mr. Chairman. I'm sorry I have one follow up question for my comment. The lady is recognized for an inquiry. Does that include staff or bill sponsors, interns, legislative employees, Interns 21 years or older? Representative [xx] It includes law students who have extra set approved [xx] staff commission

includes employees and council two members. So I would say that the intern would have to be a paid intern employed by the legislator I would like to speak for  or in a position to prove by the legislative service condition and paid with state fund. Okay [xx] for my comment that is recognized. Thank you Mr. Chairman I know it's funny here in all of [xx] encompasses the legislative ground but that's kind of interpretation to the public. And legislative employees if we draw the but right off the bath a lot of people are going to take that as anybody who works here and intern has [xx] down to [xx] State Legislature the file is legislature fact in the end term of the payment that I can pack my gun when coming to work and this is just kind a question or [xx] question [xx] for myself or others but, if you're not colleagues you going to be packing. I want to know so I know these are conceal I want to that workers in this building that are going to be parking their it's going to be concealed but how will we know? There have been many times I've spent my years here that I have seen about they respect so legislators about house and senate, I think staff up here get irritated and I know that we're talking about all intelligent we know we are talking about eminent danger, but when we started saying that we are in the side of North Carolina elected officials, can come to work and our staff can come to work, carrying a loaded weapon, I think it is a recipe for disaster and I'm really sorry that this can put in there, thank you. Representative [xx] Ladies and gentlemen we are going to maintain that [xx] the of this room. Representative [xx]. Thank you Mr Chair. Thank you Representative Cony for raising the question, I didn't want to draw you attention to a provision for their gather up a senate further down in that provision begins on line 40 at the end it says legislature or legislative employee shall provide notice to the chief of the general assembly police or the chief designee before carrying a hand gun on the premises of the state legislation building and ground. So that is a very, very important point here is we are not de-flowing people to come in and comment because if this is an individual who now under this provision would be allowed to carry their concealed permit holder they're legislative employees, before they're allowed to provide notice to the chief of police, so that our enforcement around the building would have the ability to know that A follow up to her response Representative [xx] is recognized. Thank you, so that means, and I understand I have read all that and understand that will be, the police will determine procedures for that. So this would become an Open Records Policy then, the people that are registering their guns from the state card of [xx] records? Representative [xx] No, in the section it is noted to the chief of police who would be requiring, one need to know, our chief of police has expressed his value that he would want to know they respect that kind of information and that information would be given to the law enforcement that is here in this building. I promise I'll stop. Representative Conrad. Thank you, Mr Chairman, still doesn't relieve the concerns of us as legislators not knowing he's carrying a conceled weapon, that's all. Representative Daughtry for what purpose do you stand for recognition? Ask the question. Representative Mcneal and myself were worried about what the sheriffs were thinking about this bill I understand insurance association is opposed to the bill that part about the permits, is that correct? Yeah Representative Doightry you know that. Well I'd question of when I left last night you were all going to negotiate with the sheriff so you can come up with that is all hard work I have not had any work from Chair at that point Thank you. One more question. Representative Dobson. The cost getting the NCIS or whatever it's called up to date pay the court office in my explanation it's going to be very expensive and incase

the money to coming out of the technology funds of the AOC because we're behind in technology report. We don't have much money to spare when it comes to that particular fund Representative Dobson just a verification you said they cost of, where are the bills sir? can I have them please? You want to have them?  Yes, that's more of them. On page 11, section 11 beginning on line 35. Representative Dobson the Chair is going to that one inquiry for the benefit of the members. The page 11 directs the AOC to explain $20, 000 that was appropriated to it in this current year's budget. The chair will verify that the administrative office of the court was consulted on this and has no objection. Members are there further, the Chair apologizes, Representative Floyd and then Representative Blust. Require us to keep our congregation. I have the concern that [xx] our superior personnel in a lot of stress [xx] they will be first [xx] General Assembly special police now that's a lot for any law enforcement officer to know all the personnel within the General Assembly that is going to be [xx] as number one and number two is that they have to distinguish between who is and who is not and this is just step in between because there's so many guns that would be in the General Assembly or on the of the General Assembly and those individuals would have to make a decision whether or not this person yields or is not a gun carrier [xx] they have to be checked the parameters of the general assembly I did have a concerned with that because the number I understand is so broad and you're asking a police force, I think about 20 pledged, special law enforcement officers [xx] assembly to make that decision that's a lot and we'll placing added stress on our police force I'm just saying that [xx] that fraud [xx] talk about 300mb one for Peter Pan. That they have distinguished whether or not to use there the force or not that's the question [xx] and number two environment that our nation[sp?] should be seeing today, a locked or unlocked concealed weapon [xx] over and over again, which means they checked it house and put it on position that also must determine whether or not that person is [xx] in him or was not [xx]. He doesn't know it, whether or not that person has [xx] if we can, [xx] in anything to, in anything to connect ensure the bill [xx] there? There had, they hardly gone there, its on the bill[sp] if the court rules that at one particular point impact and [xx] by all of these questions why would a person want to carry a gun to the field. Genuinely, enjoy and come back and recheck the gun out and then put it in his [xx] back in the vehicle. That to me in his immediate rule sort to full an old saying because in

the house now without the information you cannot settle with me think about, so those are my four questions that I have.  We should ask more overtime.  Representative Cleveland is recognized response to questions on  to page 16.  Thank you Mr chairman you know free health couple hundred of employees in the state legistrature I don't know how many have considered that I have appointed it is the minority, a small minority and you have to have that to get permission and confirmation to carry any legislative area, the individual police whenever they talk to a concealed Carrier/holder. The Concealed Carrier/holder by law is immediately obligated to say "I am a Concealed Carrier/holder and I'm armed" immediately. This is the first thing that should get out [xx] that can still carry [xx] mouth I don't remember what his third was, but I'll adjust the third question. Representative Paul, would you restate in the [xx] department. The department [xx] [xx] is now required to be in a locked compartment in the car it's required to be in the car and the car locked if you leave the weapon there. Individuals, if he's carrying a his weapon is in the car and he's getting out of his car and he wants to remove it from wherever it has [xx] in his auto mobile and put out on this person. I'm not sure where you're going with this, but present law allows that to be done forward six Matthew 6. Reading the book, one of our [xx] this is educational property I believe isn't that staff would like to [xx] if I may the requirement is that t has to be in a closed compartment or container not within the persons locked vehicle or in a locked container secure or fixed to the vehicle so if it's inside locked vehicle if the container if it's a tool box on the bed of the truck or a faintly inside of the motor cycle the container has to be locked. Officer Floyd. I don't understand that but we talking about seconds between moving it from that mark to this one and its law enforcement of course do you know 45 concealed on the back of that window identified that his person had condition with he doesn't have that he doesn't know. Representative Floyd the chair is going to in the chairs opinion the gentleman was drifting into an are of debate which is certainly allowed but not with the staff was there a final part of your question that would be at the fair I think something about the fair? I can concern that many people wanting to carry at the fair. They park up a blue ridge road, they have considerable areas, a distance to get permit car to a around, in fact last year I believe there was one robbed up on Blue-Ridge road, it's a solid rock. so if we can reasonably come up with an accommodation at the fair for people who desire to carry their weapon and not leaving the vehicle and going to the fair, I think come upon us to do so. Representative Ford for what purpose you want to seek recognition? would be the edge of the insecure or wave around with the project once the gun is blocked off my assumption is that it would be, but we are asking the folks that run the fair to come up with a solution representative Brown for what purpose do you seek recognition? Ask question.

The gentleman is recognized to for an inquiry. My question is about there of all the advance in the entire state of North Carolina throughout the year and I think there's several county Agricultural fairs too this special language applies only to this one advance one event different from all the other events that it needs its own set of specific of firearm law. Thank you for the question Representative Blass. Few points on that, the state fair presenting unique set of circumstances. It is a very highly traffic area, it is also an area that has ample law enforcement addressing addressing the issues there, this is in a point of discussion with the department of agriculture in the commission of agriculture in particular who under the law that we passed a few years ago did not allow him to prohibit firearms on the state programs [sp] and because of those unique set of because of that unique set of circumstances he requested that we take a look at that again and so what we did in here was with a bit of a compromise that he may prohibit it and obviously it's not tied to anyone particular commissioner, but it gives the authority to prohibit during that particular time of the state fair because of those unique set of circumstances because of how many people come through that often times you're standing short of your shoulder I as there in the past so many of were armed and it's very highly traffic area and the law enforcement and protection that they have at the state fair is excellent quite frankly.  Representative [xx] the general wants to expand Representative Stam on this point. Very briefly, the sheriff of Blaine County Donnie Harrison who had the favorability of failure of 90% urgently requests this. Mr. Chair just a question, did you indicate earlier that we were going to hear from the public during this? Yes Sir [xx] perhaps athletic events like college football, college basketball, Panthers, Carolina Hurricane there's no specific law for that. The statutes authorize working governments and private properties owners to prohibit firearms on their property no matter what the agenda. There's no general statute prohibiting guns on state ground, state property, state building except for certain buildings, courthouses, the Governor's Mansion, the Governor's Western Residence and the St. Castle building. But in general there's no general provision against weapons on state grounds at all and there's no authorization statute for in state elected official or building to prohibit firearm in general on that property so this is giving the commission agriculture the authority should prohibit on the state property we have to take a little van or there is no current authority to do so, so your county payers at the county and fair ground make it prohibit because it county property and their is authorization to county to do so within certain limitation and I don't for fair that would be allowed representative Cortham for what purpose does this lady seek recognition? Thank you Mr. Chairman, to ask Steph a question. The lady is recognized for an inquiry. Miss Steph on page four, section six line 45, says that the language that is restriction. What's is that? that, it's really a technical thing, it is not in any way allowing felons to have machine guns and the stop will be in reference to the [xx] to create problem that is in general the average citizen cannot have a machine gun expect for the circumstances. But, the court in federal law that basically says that if we limit down in any way we don't believe in the [xx] will restore Helen[sp?] White[sp?]. The dad is in fact making a modification in medical field not recognize our restoration law, so this is really just a technical clarification, where we had asked the framers to double is not necessary One question, before this becomes law it could be a hypothetical situation on opening day here at the legislature when our children are sitting with us on the house floor and grandchilren how floor could our school be full of guns while all those children are sitting there. That's what we are doing

was that an inquiry representative  That's feasible, right? Representative Carl I will be surprised if more than a handful of legislators decide to carry I, you know we don't have any world's security elements surround our buildings and I'm very comfortable with that, and I'll like to see it stay that way. And this method of letting the public know that there are other armed people running around will deter some individuals from doing something stupid, but as far as within the legislature I just do not see 70 legislators coming in there with weapons. I would think just a handful would if any. Members is there further inquiries or discussion on the bill? Members as it was announced earlier it's the Chair intention to consider substitute the Chair should have been more specific to consider substitute amendments after the public comment. However, the Chairs feels it's in order for offer to consider a technical amendment. Therefore Representative Burr, please the Chair, this is purely technical, we actually did make copies. If the sergeant of arms would just distribute it but members this is an amendment on page 16, line 141, this is two day changes and the chair is going to recognize representative [xx] if there's no objection from the committee we're representative [xx] go ahead and explain as it's been passed out, representative [xx] Thank you Mr. Chairman, this is a purely a technical amendment a [xx] in section 18 and that you'll find on line of priority one, moving that affected date which is currently December 2015, and moving that to the appropriate date. is there discussion or debate on the amendments sent forward by the gentleman from Stanley amendment will say aye, those oppose will say no, and [xx] chair the ayes have it, the amendment is adopted. Members at this time, we're going to moving to a period of public comments, the chair has been asked by the members of press if they could relocate Mice's so we've authorized to approach the doc to do that at this time, the chair would invite the bill sponsors that would like to please feel free to sit down for a while and just as a matter of additional housekeeping, the chair will reiterate that the members of the public who stand up to speak will be allocated a time period of up to two minutes, after two minutes more, your time will have expired and the chair will notify the person speaking it's the Chair's intent to call up four names at a time in the interest of time, the speaker will be Ryan Mitchell[sp?] the second will be Anthony Rick[sp?], the third will be Ricky Blair[sp?] and the four will be Bruce, the Chair would ask that before you begin your remarks, if you are here representing an organization please state that if you're not you certainly just here for yourself that's fine, the Chair will also invite any presenters who would like to have their written comments as a part of the committee requisite, let them give the Sergent of Arms to submit them to the committee clerk. With that the Chair is going to act on the understanding that the press is ready, and the members are certainly ready, so with that Mr Minto you're recognised for a time not to proceed two minutes Sir. Thank you, Chairman Lewis thank you members of the committee I would be brief my name is Ryan Mentel legislative liaison for the office of the governor, the governor shares the concern with the sheriff association about section 10 of this bill, for that reason you cannot support the bill in it's current form, thank you. Thank you, Mr Mitam[sp?] My name is Anthony Relait[sp?], I'm the North Carolina state liaison for the National Rifle Association thank you, Mr Chairman, members of the committee, NRA supports this legislation, there are

number of moving parts to it so I'm not going to any details about all of them, the most popular one is the repeal of permit to purchase and NRA strongly supports that. I know that the Sheriffs Association opposes that however I would like to point out that the NRA has surveyed all one hundred shares in North Carolina and the majority of them seem to not care about this provision. We've had about three dozen say that they support repealing or support repealing it if the reporting of prohibited records to next[sp?] is fixed only about a dozen have told us that they outright don't support repealing this provision or repealing your permit to purchase so I appreciate that the Sheriff Association takes its position, but I think that the sheriff themselves necessarily share those views again I appreciate the work done to this bill and I hope that you can support its passage thank you. My name is Vicky Boyer I'm from Orange county I represent only myself I would like to remind do have a little bit of country history we are so proud of our Cowboy day in our wild west that we forgot some of the laws that were enacted that time most of our wildest towns in those days had large requiring cowboys to stopped and drop their weapons off at the sheriff's office on their way into town and leave them there for the duration of their visit, picking them up only when they town Twin stone Arizona had a big billboard on the outside of town, telling everybody to do this even over a hundred years ago, American clearly recognized that higher motions young men, alcohol and firearm do not mix and we have due to its loss side of that I think it's time you re-evaluate some of this and realize that college campuses which ready access to off campus alcohol is not a place to have firearms with young people who get excited about basketball games in this state. Nor is it any place here in this building should have firearms where tensions can ran high. Thank you. Hey, my name is Ed Garanger[sp?] from Wake County, I'm a member of North Carolinians against gun violence they don't actually represent the organization though, I'd like to patch around the page from the general. We have in this bill one side that wants to eliminate the arbitrariness and delays of the current procedure we have the other side that wants to maintain the background checks. There ought to be a way to reconcile the two, in fact the interim solution proposed by this bill until 2021 is such a solution. Now, we know that in Missouri the only precedent I'm aware of where they did remove background check, gun homicides went up by 21% and murders went up by 14% after repealing 2007 when there was no comfortable change in the states around Missouri or the country as a whole, that's what we subject to a North Carolina if we remove the background check and that's why we think it's a bad idea, I I submit that we ought to have experience with the entrance solution until 2021 and then make it about whether it's good or bad, not to prejudge that right now before we have the evidence, thank you. Thank you, so the chair will point out that that Mr. Ed Geridger[sp?] as opposed to Mr. Bruce Mulder, Mr. Mulder appear. Now to [xx] with the North Carolina School Boards Association we just wanted to let you know that we have serious concerns with section 3 of many of the reasons that were shared earlier, but also one of the previous teachers mentioned the wild wild west, we have concerns that if there's an potentially imminent threat, imminent danger or people could enter the school at that point the [xx] the local law enforcement won't know with the good guys from the bad guys and students, teachers could be caught and a much more dangerous situation and what otherwise could have been and we believe that is an issue for law enforcement to handle for the various reasons, thank you very much and we're happy.  we believe there is a fix to section three, we're happy to work with the sponsors to

fix that without necessary watering down or changing responses intent, thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen next for speaker and the chair will apologize if there is any mispronunciations there are unintentional Dr. Jonathan Cartel and Kim Yarman, welcome to the committee if you would please state your name for the record and you have the floor for a time not exceeding two minutes. I'm Beak Crow[sp?] and I represent old people who haven't been here before, and coming for this particular case, and thank you for letting me speak. I support a balance to approach to gun issues like most other issues, I think the second amendment is an important part of the culture of our country, but it is the second amendment, it's not the first amendment, and it's not the whole Constitution, and suddenly a constitution left on a decoration on Independence, which I basic right, likely to be proceeding with happiness, has everything has to be in the context and so I'm really just stopped to be honest, that we are looking at the bill that is called the second amendment affirmation act had that shape, the conversion about legitimate ownership of guns, safty in our legislature safe in our schools safety for our kids are we here to raise the second amendment to and label, specialty above all the other, rights we enjoy or we hear to try to find a middle line, a balance in terms of safety and, the right rights, including the rights to their homes, and always speaking as a formal teacher, the last thing I want see in classroom is merging kids with guns because it is a good classroom you are getting some wild arguments just like what you did in the legislator. if we look at this bill and I Mr. Chairman, Members of the Committee, members of the public. My name is Dr. R I reside in Apex, North North Carolina, I'm a private citizen. One thing we know for certain, this is indisputable, is that the concealed carry population itself increases the risk of serious injury and theft to the general public. Although the risk is been clearly documented, we do not understand the extent of the risk because we've been obstructed from studying it as such it becomes impossible to determine an offsetting benefit. My work on the intersection of human rights, race and gun violence took me to both the US department of state in the United Nations in Geneva, Switzerland last summer as a report author on African American gun violence victimization. I participated in a review of our country's obligations under a treaty ratified by the United States Senate. Not one but two committees consisting of legal and academic scholar ruled that the lose of life by gunfire in our country includes its fisc propotion effects on women children, racial ethnic minorities as well as the proliferation of standard ground laws indelibly linked to conceal carry represent a failure of our government and one of its most fundamental duties to protect the life of its citizens. Life is a fundamental right, it is a foundational right in our country. It is embedded in our Declaration of Independence as being an unalienable right, unable to be denied or be taken away. We fought the war of independence to secure that right. To use an element of our bill of rights to justify the and intentional loss of life in thousands of our citizens each year through a product intended to end life makes a mockery of our constitution. As a citizen, I'm asking that you effectively exercise your duty to protect life by tabling this piece of legislation. With concealed carrying not being a constitutionally protected right and until we can ascertain the extent of the risk, the decision to lower permit requirements and the public span CCW resides solely with you. Thank you My name is Jonathan Koch. I'm a member of North Carolinians against gun violence. I apologize for my handwriting they didn't teach us right in medical school. I'm here to thank the legislators, Rep. Shaffer and others for addressing some of the medical issues that were I do think that it's appropriate for

physicians to have the opportunity to speak with their patients, in particular the parents of their patients about gun safety, that's a part of our obligation. I am concerned about other aspects of the legislation which remains in the bill such as the exemptions of eliminating some misdemeanours from the list of misdemeanour convictions from people who have permits, I am concerned about the fact that the pistol permitting system could be changed and some of the local disgreation[sp?] of sheriffs be taken away I think that there are some sources of information that might exist only at the county level if they try to standardise those examinations that sheriffs currently can to do or develop jurisdiction, I think remains important and will protect people, and finally as faculty member at the UNC going  school, global [xx] I'm very concerned about the issue of guns of campus and having the privilege of teaching many of our North Carolina young people I can tell you from experience that they even lack the judgement to be able to tell when use of deadly force would be necessary, it would be very inappropriate if you allow such young people to have access to working this in their cars. I had the privilege of working Rep. George Moore in this House in 1981 on child [xx] safety legislation, and I think this bill will take us away from begin our leader in the [xx] convection in the country, thank you thank you Chairman Lois and members of the rules committee, my names I'm a grandmother from Cary North Carolina. I'm also a volunteer for Moms Demand Actions for Grandsons although I'm not speaking on behalf of Mums Demand Action today. I attended every committee meeting there's been on this bill and I've spoken to many of you privately as well, and really appreciate this opportunity for public comment, because that's something that's been missing, and in all the discussions that we've having on this bill. One thing that we have not talked about is the consequence of a gun violence and when things could go wrong. When my children were attended for, University of [xx] and I was with the older students then. My children were practicing a Turkish Pop Dance in a little conference room just like this conference room, when there were noises coming from a conference room down the hall And the unusual noises and so we closed the door and turned off the lights and we waited for the noises to stop. It turns out that this parental student who'd been passed over for a dislocation award had taken a gun into conference room and killed half of the Faculty of the Physics and Astronomy Department. He went upstairs and shot and killed the chair of the department. He walked again past the room that we were in and came back and for and I was trying to stop the flow of blood and he came back into the room and shot that  to make sure they were dead. The chair is going to allow the lady to finish her pulse. Thank you very much sorry am so nervous by the time this man was finished with the list of tasks that he had and he also killed a university administrator and then shot my friends here we don't have senate who is the work study happened to be real substantial in those situation office that day the bullet went through her jaw and lounged in her neck and spine and she was a quadriplegic she died of cancer[sp?] in 2008 I can't I just can't tell you how much it pains me to have discussion and many many discussions on this bill without ever discussing the impact on human beings who have been elected by them violent if someone took a place 91 major [xx] for my grand children I know those ages the 1287 and now days go by and when I

don't think about that what it was like, to hold my children's faces to the carpet and then just to hear the sound and smell the blood and I have to listen to me everyday for the rest of her life that we just let her die because she didn't want to be alive any more. She didn't want to be the person who survived that and I just wish we would just think about those things as well and all other things that has been talked about and have faded as we move forward with this legislation and will tell you that when you are in a situation like that the issue of them before and that something that should be taken lightly and we can presume that everyone who has the gun is going to be doing the right thing with those guns. Mitchell, with the chair, thank you for your participation. I hope it is we did excess every time to complete the remarks. Thank you. Next for, the Chair  apologies again for any name she recorded incorrectly I can't if its Becky Cortous, or myself I can't read it, horrible, Judy Doyle and Jeff Rall. If those could you please push the mic and ma'am if you state your name for the record, and you have two minutes. My name is Becky Chustoff executive director of North Carolina against gun violence. Thank you so much for this opportunity to speak to you this morning. On section 10, we're very concerned that they are doing away with a Pistol Permanent System because this closes the loophole in our federal law that, with the Pistol Permanent System allows for there to be background checks and licence sellers. 80% of prisoners who are surveyed said that they received guns from unlicensed sellers. The North Carolina public understands that checks are important and overwhelming 87% in North Carolina's likely  voters requiring background check for all [xx]. This is not an isolated at 2013 studying in New England Journal of Medicine found 84% of gun owners and 74% of of NRA members to support laws that would background checks for all private sales. It's essential that we can keep background checks for unlicensed sellers just to catch criminals and save lives. In this county last year, 200  permits domestic violence [xx], fugitives and people with severe mental illness were denied under the [xx] system. As for limiting stocking convictions to five years that's also objectionable because there's no reason to believe that convicted stockers are any less dangerous five years and one day after his or her stocking conviction. We're also concerned that the provision that would reduce the misdemeanor [xx] the crime of possessing a gun on a private property and violation of an owner's provision [xx] on the risk [xx] out of the law, allowing private property owners to prohibit guns in their property. If we can [xx] private property owners. The [xx] allowing an individual to seal [xx] were likely increased litigation against cash strapped local governments. Thank you again for this opportunity to speak with you this morning. Thank you madam. My name is Paul Vloner, Director Grassroots, North Carolina, and it's 20, 000 members and 127, 000 email alerts of subscribers. I'd like to thank the committee for addressing this legislation. We're a little disappointed that some thing were not included but by and large it's a good bill and we do support it. My comment is still with the crystal purchase reappeal section and the misinformation that's been given you on this by other [xx] including the claim that Missouri experienced an increase in homicide after reappealing it's law. In truth, the homicide rate in Missouri went up more in the five years prior to that than it did in the five years after, clearly there's a problem and clearly is not a pistol purchase permits. This is a letter I received from one of many I received from people who are arbitrarily denied their pistol purchase permits. This gentleman was an elderly man, Orange county resident living by himself who wanted a pistol purchase permit for his own self protection but was denied because he didn't know two law enforcement references. Another one told me that he had been denied because he had committed a crime of pursuing his wife when he was in the millitary 24 years prior to that now the sheriff won't give him a permit. Another believes that although he got permits in Durham county, he was denied an Orange county perhaps partly because of his race. The Jim Crow era pistol purchase permit system are cade[sp?]

arbituary. We would prefer they disappear all together and at least in this bill in its most recent amendment would create sunset in six years and it's crucial to that provision remaining within the bill. This bill should address those who worry about private transactions since permits would still be required for those transactions. It should address general concerns about the quality of background checks because it allows six years to continue improving our reporting to the National Instant Track System. I urge you to report House Bill 562 Auto Committee with the amended purchase permit language intact and included, and the medical privacy language, thank you. Thank you. My name is Jeff Brown, I am the Legislative Director for Grass Roots North Carolina. There have been so many points brought up here today it's hard to know where to start, but I would like to go ahead and mention that the Second Amendment isn't so much about guns, it's about peoples' ability to defend themselves. The majority of mass shootings in the last 20 years have been in places where guns are not allowed by the law abiding people, criminals do not care about law by definition. They will carry their guns anywhere, that is just a point of fact first the purchase permit system is a Jim Crow era law, it was initially designed to be racist even today there's, you know, who would put up with the idea that somebody in the government can make an arbitrary decision over whether or not get a driver's license or any other type of a license or permit. It is only for the second amendment which is affirmed to be an individual right by the supreme court. Please vote the right to self defense Thank you. Ms. Jenny Doyle, are you still going to attend to summission to speak if not the last three the chair is aware of are Wesley Magman Handleman and Alex Miller, and the Chair will apologize if I catch your names wrong. Please state them correctly for the record Okay, my name is Wes McMahon. I am a father, a concerned father. I'm here for myself. I'm a resident of Orange County thing here is we're talking about protection, about keeping everyone safe, safe for yourself and your home and republic. I have friends that permits don't Handguns, and feel that it keeps them safe, one of the things I hear is that the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun now we may debate that, but when I may ask you is that another way prevent that girl at the going[sp] one is to do our past there is problem beginning the gun in the first page, so as we said this I think we have a responsibility to do our level best to make sure that those people with criminal intents or with a past record of being a criminal has a harder time getting a gun and the, people who have a desire to protect themselves in the community, so have we brought testimonies supporting NC share[sp] about I would like to sheriff and myself for community who has employed on, who get to know or who is, just not, because they know us all. So I'm here today because I would have feel more safe from my community in my state if you all in the law enforcement community, helped to weed out those people that don't need a gun or shouldn't have one. I thank you very much for letting me talk here today and answering on the phone calls and all your attention to this issue. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Hi. My name is Karen Holderman. I'm a mother from Durham to three young boys. I am a volunteer at Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, and I'm a public health researcher. Today I'm speaking as a private citizen from Durham. My job, my number one job as a mother, is to keep my children safe you'alls number one jobs is to help me do that by maintaining a safe, secure environment to the best of our ability. H562 by weakening the postal permitting process, courageous he even like after viral, by people who shouldn't have them, the prominent just passes strong or doing the right in this Carolina, we're keeping guns out of the hand of the people who shouldn't have them to the best of our ability so I would like to this profession and stay in place with world-care owners the promise to push

that care owners, the people to what know what community experience well it helps me feel great about keeping my own children safe keeping your children and grandchildren safe all of our families and neighbors and communities safe and the places where we live, work and play. Strong sensible gun regulations work to prevent gun violence they work more guns equal to more gun violence, more gun injury, more gun death, so please I ask you all to think of own family not just mine and their are communities and to keep a pistol permitting process and place and strong thank you so so much pretty thoughtfulness on this bill has been very clear, their has been a lot of conversations and I appreciate all of your thoughtfulness on this, Thank you thank you mum. Mr. Chairman members of the committee thank you for letting me speak my name is Alex Miller I'm here to speaking on behalf of North Carolina coalition against domestic violence before the [xx] I'm also veteran of the united states military and a gun owner the coalition is not certainly an anti-gun organisation but we do have concerns about two particular sections of these bill I also want to recognize that the sponsor just quickly Rep. Setzer have allowed us a tremendous amount of time to speak with her address some of the concerns we had and work with her to address some of the issues unfortunate their are still are two sections that are of concern to the coalition the first is the pit of purchase permit repeal that section has certainly been improved though the work that has been done on the bill, we still have the concern about the idea that even at a latter point sale would nor longer be required to have a background check involved and the potential impact on domestic call of victims of strong concern to the coalition. The other section that we are concerned about is section seven which would take a current lifetime on permit for certain misdemeanor convictions, and convert that to a three year, five year barn with many of the list of minor convictions that are listed in the bill, there are some that are directly related to domestic violence that would not be caught up in federal definition in section seven as they currently exist. Included in that is just one example, JS1433D to have a conviction under that section one had to have assaulted an individual with whom their were in a relationship, caused serious spinal injury and do it in front of a child, and we feel that convictions of crime such as this, stocking, violation of a protective order, domestic criminal trespass and other crimes against domestic violence victims, warrants continued life time burn against [xx] permits as in the current law. So we hope that the members will consider that we will continue to work with sponsors to address this concerns both in the house and when the bill moves to the senate. I appreciate your time, Thank you. Thank you Mr Miller. members we are going to return to committee discussion and debate on the bill at this time the chair is aware of amendments that either are prepared or are being prepared so what members seek to the chair is going to recognize Representative Starm to submit an amendment chair would direct the Sergeant at Arm to please distribute the to the members Ladies and gentlemen ask view amendment being distributed to the committee for the benefit of the public they may not have access to the amendment form, Representative Starm moves to amend the bill on page eight lines 5 through 7 rewriting those lines to read the upon the fact coma below comma and the reasonableness os the shares refuse and shall be final, period, closed quotation mark. Do members have copies? If so the General from is recognized to explain his amendment. You may do it from there, Sir, or from here, your preference. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is not purely technical amendment but a small amendment that I think gets at the intent of the bill anyway. This relates to the denial permits and the appeal, where the appeal goes, currently,

it's to the Chief District Court Judge. I think the Bill improves that by having it to a Superior Court Judge where there may be less local influence. Home cooking. Home cooking, that's the word and I think that part's good. The bill says that then it can go by appeal to the Court of Appeals and that makes it matter of rights. I propose to take that language out. They can still go to the Court of Appeals by but that very discretionary, and the Court Of Appeals just doesn't need to have another category of appeal the right. They have hundreds of cases for parental termination of rights just go up there and they have to act for everyone and it's just overwhelming the court of appeal to stop and they would stop me so I moved [xx] the amendment report Rep. Shaffer to debate the amendment. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Rep. Stam for bringing amendment. The bill sponsors are not apposed to this amendment we then urge your support. Is there further discussion? Representative [xx], for what purpose if I ca explain, Trace back current law on line it's just correct then new language of 16 cents would. Is there further discussion or debate? on the amendment sent forth by the gentleman from the Wake, seeing none, those in favor of the amendment say aye,  Aye, Those oppose say no ayes have it and the amendment is adopted, are there further amendments to be offered? further discussion or debate, Representative Floyd, for what purpose does the gentleman seek recognition? Trying to give an amendment to The Chair believes the gentleman will have time to get the amendment prepared if you work with staff, further discussion or debate on the bill itself while we await Representative Floyd's amendment, Representative Holt what purpose do you receive recognition? To speak on the bill to debate the bill. The gentleman has to for debate the proposed committee substitute as amended. Thank you Mr. Chair and I recognise the hard work that has gone into this without necessarily agree with everyone's purpose of doing that work for but certainly respect the fact that that work is going on into trying to address some concerns. I continue to have a serious, lately concerns regarding putting more firearms in public buildings and stations and having people carrying them who do not understand their added responsibility by bringing deadly force into the area, in particular, the legislative of the other court building is aware. I still think we need to make the area safe for all citizens and not reserve safety, just the citizens who get a conceal carry permit and can afford to buy a weapon which then provide them a full sense of security they can't keep the weapons themselves and they can be easily taken away and used not only on them but on other people. So I'm certainly concerned about that, I'm further concerned about that deal and we will care private property on those that give the venue soon will be effective enforcement of the law I think it would be due to the fact on someone value your property right and uses a gun for with payment process. That certainly opened this up to people, opened up to to continue on with this law and that cut is the specialist bill should not have ended up is the place all about here who have daily responded to not being respected in both not allowing our local share to have the opportunity to fulfill the responsibility they have for you in ensuring those locals who receive weapons have some local knowledge for people who who approve that process is concerned. The number of guns that we're talking about allowing to be purchased without having the proper background checks is we already know that North Carolina has a ranking of about fifth nationally, for the state where guns come from and show up in other states at the scene of crime, guns purchased in North Carolina show up

in other states with a few tire state for being a source of that, and so I don't think this bill addresses their problem. I think it is theirs to break that problem, and allows more guns to be found at same crimes not only in old states but at large states. The fact that we're going to the concerns of our sheriffs, of our citizens without wanting to be safe and ignore responsibility to make our public spaces safe for all citizens I think it's coming all of that and we can do better than that and I'm going to vote the bill all those [xx] thank you Mr. Chair Representative Wales, what purpose seek your recognition? To speak on the bill.   The gentleman is recognized to debate the bill. Thank you Mr. Speaker. Thank you for the presentation from the bill sponsor. I know we had individual to stand up. And I know he had individual to speak about our share. I had not heard any sign from our shares until this morning can I ask you Mr. Chair is anyone here at represent the sheriff association? Because there was a statement made and I'm a friend in NRA, I do have my principle myth. I had one sheriff to call me and one sheriff to text me [xx] and I'd like to see if Mr. Pablo or someone from the Sheriff's Association leader can speak on there behalf. Is there a representative from the Sheriff's Association. Representatives name is Doug Mitski[sp?] I represent the Affairs Association. Representative Ray [xx] answer any question. Yes sir, our sheriff from Northampton County, Jack Smith called me on the way in, and my sheriff from Halfa[sp?] county with trip has been texting me since I've been in here about your blitz. Last night it was put that the deal would be in the committee this morning, here we are I heard from and then I heard from representative a few minutes ago that some sheriffs had said they were okay and some really didn't matter. Does the sheriffs' association have a position for all 100 counties? representative Ray members of the committee [xx] called last week we had like 60 sherif's in town that stop by and visit their members on behalf of the association, the association speaks for the 100 sheriffs, makes decisions for association to take positions on behalf of sheriffs in North Carolina, consistently as this bill has been debated, they have opposed bill on the pistol purchase permit, that is still consistent, still in position today in relation to this bill. Follow up. The gentleman is recognised amendments are being drafted now so members don't know which [xxx] is drafted up. If amendment is drafted up to take section 10 would the sheriff association be OK with the bill? Sheriffs position on the bill is that they support maintain and [xx] purchase permit. Thank you Mr chair. Thank you Listening about also members of the community would like the boss can inquire the Chairman. Can you tell us  when the members voted the sheriffs all voted to oppose the repeal? When was that decided? The executive committee and the legislative committee all come together and review legislation that's pending before the legislature is this bill being developed I believe that several earlier versions of the bill did not have a refill, just a purchase permit item that was added if I'm not mistaken and. I will Mr. And you haven't called all 100 shares, you don't know where all of the sheriffs today and I know that you've propose this in previous years and I've seen this is based on some previous votes and I believe there are around 20 to 25 sheriffs selected in the election last year have you had a discussion with the new sheriffs to update the position based on? the existing elected chair of [xx] state. The position of the serif association that to maintain the first piece of purchase permit is reflective of the association. Thank you Mr. Chair Representative Reese [xx] Representative Reese has an inquiry for the gentleman Thank you Mr. Chair it is customary [xx] is it customary from the Sheriff

Association to take position of 12 Sheriffs, and use that as a position of the entire Sheriff Association? Their representative. If 888 of your sheriffs or 78 or 88 whatever that number is informed you they were fine with technology or any time you doing this kind of legislation. With those 78-88 influence your decision on whether or not to take the position. Would say like many organizations and associations the decisions are made by We are coming and taking a vote of organisation representing without the report vote I would like to ask the name of the chairman there are a couple of relations that were added to these PCS that were agreed to by the shares association and those were to address issues that had been brought up as concerns so that the sheriffs  believe they could help streamline one of which could be the time of which to receive a pistol purchase permit. One would give a consistency of establishing a set standard across all counties for the purchase permit application and so, I would say it's not that we're not willing to address concerns that are raised about the process, but it's certainly a position of the association representing the 100 sheriffs that the permit remain place. Thank you. Further discussion further debate, Representative Reeves what purpose does the gentleman recognition? To debate.   The gentleman has the floor to debate the bill's amended.   Thank you Mr. Chair and what I would just say is that [xx] I have the unknown Sheriff Association to come in and take position [xx] bill, I've not heard anything that indicated that sheriff work association is manned by [xx] just kind of enforces the will and so I'm still hearing numbers saying that probably 78 or 88 of the [xx] association it's up to you to understand. I think Sheriff Association is just like our organization just like any other organisation where if the majority take the position that's what they do, they take the position so, I just have a hard time I believe that just like with our body where majority decisions are made that they would be due to that extent, but what we've kind of heard for days is that our sheriff have being arbitrating permit process that they are enforcing it and a general prototype message and I have a tough time with that without hearing a [**] and so after that particular section to view I was Just after [xx] take that into consideration, that he shared bond as we are like [xx] contact we're not sharing or it spread through this in while chair [xx] representative sheriff as wrong back of the over well inventory of sheriff to taking another position and that would be my [xx] thank you members it is house tradition and protocol that when a member of the house does not seat on a committee request to address may be on a bill that that courtesy is extended therefore the chair is going to recognize representative J Adams for a comment on the bill. Representative Adams. Without objection or comment we had some I think very productive conversation yesterday and I think the sheriff Association made some very good changes and specifically section 10 paragraph E and I think we are going to pursue that I think that we should work together to make this a better law. I spoke with my sheriff this morning. I had not heard from him then until this morning and he gave me several examples of situations where he had intervened to stop. [xx] getting permits purchased. However, the three examples he gave me were all people with no record that he would have issued a permit to purchase to, prior to the events that occurred immediately they could have had those pistol permits in their pockets and they would have been able to acquire pistol on demand

when we made good progress yesterday, I'd just like to say that we accepted everything that was proposed in terms of changes to section ten, I just want to say that I appreciate It. Representative Reece, for what purpose is the gentleman seek recognition? The gentleman is recognized to debate the committee substitute. I quit, I believe, the sheriff appointments before change is as follows has been this big. I would hope that there has been a committee to take that which is average bill and leave in the share of  because I firmly believe that our sheriff who are likely to serve clientele do a great job, in vetting people to determine their competence. I've had the same experience as Representative. They make those de3cisions that you are comfortable with shares arrangements Do I do start making decision on you background? I would that this amendment that will take this section out and leave the following process as it is and I hope that's clear for my friends. Representative Dalton what purpose respectively own question. The Chair is going to except that the gentleman is anxious to move on with the debate but he's going to rule the gentleman was not in power to cover questions of this time. Is there further discussion or further debate on the bill? For the bill sponsors Representative Sheifa for a comment. Thank you Mr. Sharron, thank you members of the committee and again members of public who've come out on both sides of this issue and I do appreciate the discussion and the debate and the questions, there are few points that I wanted to make, I wanted to spell a major misconception about the pistol permit issue. I've received a lot of communication emails, phone calls, e. T. C from people saying I can't believe that you want to eliminate background check, I can't believe that you want to put guns in the hands of people without background check. That is not what this field does, it is not what it has ever done, and yes, the original version of how Bill 562, they contain a pistol permit retail that has been there since day one, when I filed it in early April. Either no way attempt to reduce background checks for people attempting to obtain hand guns. On the contrary, it is attempting to strengthen those background checks off to the better part of the last two years, we have worked very deeply of what we can do to improve our next background check, this has been a come up today, but the next background check, the next point of sale background check is what is in current place for appointed sale background checks for long guns, shotguns, riffles, e. T. C. What we would like to do is expressed in language of this bill, as we would like to strengthen background checks not we can then not eliminate them, but we would like to strengthen background checks through the National System of 37 other states [xx], we use it for a portion of our gun sales, the major portion of our gun sale. We would like to strengthen those background checks and then ultimately move to where those are the background checks that are recurring. This is not because we think that the Sheriffs are doing a bad job, in a given case that we think that we can do better, we think that we can do more to eliminate the problems that we have with this background check by standardizing them and putting them frankly to this computerized system that so many other states are using and we already find appropriate for our short gun and the rifle etc, would be better. So the idea we are eliminating that ground check that we [xx] is simply not true and simply bit of misunderstanding of the law as it is and doing we checked in the bill. I would urge your support of the bill we have had a what if a lot of of eyes and brain and frankly just focus on offer to be issue taking at this for many months now so I think thank you for the committee [xx] and urge your support at the bill, I do believe that Representative Cleveland may, Okay, thank you member Representative Bar who is a member, I'm sorry Representative Ford for what purpose do you rise? Representative Bar has moved the proposed committee substitute house bill 562 as amended be given a favorable be rolled to the new proposed committee substitute and that proposed committee substitute to be given a favorable report unfavorable to the original bill is there further discussion or debate on the motion from the gentleman from Starling[sp?]?

Seeing none, those favoring the motion to give the proposed committee substitute submitted in favor for say aye Aye those opposed for say No No the division having been called, the chair we'll elect to instruct the clerk to call the role if whatever systems is needed for the clerk. Representative Stan, aye. Rep. Torbett? Aye. Torbett,  aye. Rep. Bell? Aye. Bell,  aye. Rep. Blast? aye,  Blast aye, Representative Bores Aye, Representative Bob Garden Aye, Representative Ruth aye Representative Carney.  No.  Rep. Carper.  No. Carper no. Rep. Floyd. No. Rep. freely No, freely No Rep, Pitman, No, freely never Rep. Gill, Free No Rep, Hall [xx] [xx] no, Representative Hastings? Aye. Hastings aye, Representative Jackson? No. Jackson no, Representative Johnson? Aye. Jobson aye, representative Reeds. No. Reeds no representative Robinson. Aye. Robinsons aye, representative Stan. Aye. Stein, aye. Representative Shaffer? Aye. Shaffer, Aye. Rep. Szoka? Aye. Szoka, aye. Representative Tine? No. Mr. Tine, no. Representative Ray right now. Members with 13 votes in the affirmative and 13 votes in the negative the chair votes aye the vote 14 in the affirmative and 13 in the negative, this motion is adopted. There being no further business to come before the committee, committee stands adjourned. How long.